Hoyt (recurve) Avalon+, Axis, or Elan?

Question:

Am ordering a set of FX limbs.  Would like opinions about using an Avalon+, Axis, or Elan riser? I’ve read what I can find on the net; your-all’s opinions would help. Thanks in advance. BTW: One person was suggesting I look at the new Martin as well…

Response:

check with Seth Spraggins about the AeroTech   It’s the "Axis Light". > Am ordering a set of FX limbs.  Would like opinions about using an Avalon+, > Axis, or Elan riser? I’ve read what I can find on the net; your-all’s > opinions would help. Thanks in advance. > BTW: One person was suggesting I look at the new Martin as well…

– TexARC publicize the sport of Archery! http://www.texasarchery.org Outgoing messages scanned for viruses by Nortons AV 2002

Response:

>Am ordering a set of FX limbs.  

Okay. I’m tempted to wonder why – when you haven’t decided on the combination. The same set of limbs in different risers will feel differently. >Would like opinions about using an Avalon+, >Axis, or Elan riser? I’ve read what I can find on the net; your-all’s >opinions would help. Thanks in advance.

They’ll all hit the middle if you shoot them well. No one can really advise you any differently. Depends what you are looking for – a heavy/light riser, a short/long riser, a pretty/ugly riser ) >BTW: One person was suggesting I look at the new Martin as well…

And then there’s the Win & Win stable of risers – oh yes and the Spigarelli, the Best, the PSE… I recommend you trawl the net a bit more, find a set of risers you like the look of then see if you can beg/steal/borrow any of them.

Response:

Hoyt Axis Olympic style riser

Question:

anyone out there have any experience with the new Hoyt Axis riser?

Response:

From what I hear Hoyt is only marketing it in Europe at this time although I am sure selected archers have seen it.  I heard on this board that Butch Johnson hs been shooting one. I asked a dealer about one and was told that they hoped to have them available by April 15.  I see that some European suppliers already list them in their net catalogs. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

I saw an Aaxis riser today.  It certainly is heavy.  We weighed it and it was about 3.5 pounds vs 2.25 pounds for an avalon riser.  Add sight and stabilizer systems and you will have to really be strong to hold one up  On the other side of the coin though,  it should be very stable. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Is there any reason in particular that you don’t like the Axis riser?  Have you even used one?

Response:

I’ve never used one, but Butch Johnson was the only one using it at the NAA Nationals yesterday. I hear he hated it at first. It uses FX limbs w/o an adapter, but all others need an adapter. I hear it’s very heavy, which is the main complaint. All this is 2nd or 3rd hand info.

Response:

> I’ve never used one, but Butch Johnson was the only one using it at the NAA > Nationals yesterday. I hear he hated it at first. It uses FX limbs w/o an > adapter, but all others need an adapter. I hear it’s very heavy, which is the > main complaint. All this is 2nd or 3rd hand info.

couldn’t have hated it much, I think he shot 591.

Response:

>couldn’t have hated it much, I think he shot 591.

Yes he did.  I didn’t stay long enough the second day to see how he shot, but I’m sure it was another high score.   — Alex     __O        _-<,_       (_)/ (_)

Response:

He used to shoot high scores before too, so what was wrong with his old handle? LS says… >couldn’t have hated it much, I think he shot 591. > Yes he did.  I didn’t stay long enough the second day to see how he shot, > but I’m sure it was another high score. > — > Alex     __O >        _-<,_ >       (_)/ (_)

Before you buy.

Response:

>He used to shoot high scores before too, so what was wrong with his old >handle?

I’m sure there was nothing wrong.  But if he shoots the bow and scores well, I’m sure Hoyt can sell more of these bows. Alex     __O        _-<,_       (_)/ (_)

Response:

says… >He used to shoot high scores before too, so what was wrong with his old >handle? > I’m sure there was nothing wrong.  But if he shoots the bow and scores > well, I’m sure Hoyt can sell more of these bows.

The Axis sure looks sharp, I have to give it that. I just got my Elan in the post today and it’s every bit as pretty, though. If all goes well and my shoulder is healed up right, hopefully I’ll be back to recurve shooting soon…. LS > Alex     __O >        _-<,_ >       (_)/ (_)

Before you buy.

Response:

>> I’ve never used one, but Butch Johnson was the only one using it at the >NAA > Nationals yesterday. I hear he hated it at first. It uses FX limbs w/o an > adapter, but all others need an adapter. I hear it’s very heavy, which is >the > main complaint. All this is 2nd or 3rd hand info.

Which is the problem with "2nd or 3rd hand info".  Butch shot a 298 with his Axis the day he got it, and shot 591/592 at Nationals.  He has never had a complaint about it.  That score will probably be enough to win when the tournament wraps up in West region this weekend.  Also, Butch was not the only archer with an Axis, Denise Parker and a few others were shooting Axis as well.  There will be quite a few at Vegas this weekend as well.

Response:

I WAS AT THE VEGAS SHOOT… AND I HAVE TO SAY I SHOT LIKE SHIT… IAM CRYING… BUT ANYWAY… THERE WEREN’T AS MANY AXIS RISERS AS I THOUGHT THERE WOULD BE… AND DENISE WASN’T SHOOTING HERS EITHER… SHE WAS SHOOTING HER AVALON….

Response:

please remove caps lock !!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I WAS AT THE VEGAS SHOOT… AND I HAVE TO SAY I SHOT LIKE SHIT… IAM > CRYING… BUT ANYWAY… THERE WEREN’T AS MANY AXIS RISERS AS I THOUGHT THERE > WOULD BE… AND DENISE WASN’T SHOOTING HERS EITHER… SHE WAS SHOOTING HER > AVALON….

Response:

schrob: >I WAS AT THE VEGAS SHOOT.

Please dont shout, we are not deaf! — Sven

Response:

neither am I, but Iam not threatened by BIG letters… and they don’t hurt my ears…. don’t be angry, just an observation… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I WAS AT THE VEGAS SHOOT. > Please dont shout, we are not deaf! > — > Sven

Response:

schrob: >neither am I, but Iam not threatened by BIG letters… and they don’t hurt >my ears….

But in the usenet is using big LETTERS like shouting. It is an unwritten law. — Sven

Response:

I just wanted to ask if you have the new axis riser?  I wanted to know if you thought highly of it because i was comtemplating an axis riser myself…

Response:

i am sory i dont – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Hoyt follow-up question

Question:

I have second hand experience of quality. A close friend of mine bought an Avalon in the states and when he got it back to the UK found the top limb to be bent (in directions it should not be!). He contacted Hoyt who arranged for the limbs to be changed by a UK dealer, Quick’s I think, with minimum fuss. New limbs are perfect. Okay, it’s probably a good idea to check before you buy, but what I’m saying is that the backup is there if you do have a problem. One thing though, apparently this warranty is void if the bow is bought by mail order, watch out! Danny – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I posted a question recently about the GM and Elan models, and I want to thank > everybody that responded.  Two follow-up questions howver, > 1)  Assuming all else equal, what are the performance/practical ramifications > of the supposedly "stiffer" Elan riser? > 2) Any thoughts on Hoyt quality? Any issues/concerns I should be aware of? > Thanks again! > SD

Response:

>Let’s continue the ISSUES not personal attacks at hand >As for Hoyt quality, I think it’s second to none on the FITA style recurve >market.

Hoyt is the market leader  by far as to quality I am not sure. >My GM was made in 1993 and it’s still in great shape.  The LIMBS >are also from 1993 and really they work great also and trust me this bow has >been through some abuse.  

Very possible depends on the number of arrows you shot with it, depends on the drawweight too >I’ve never really heard of a GM crack ever,

I have seen twice the broken bits of such a handlle, hoyt did replace them without questions. Acknowledged the problem by producing a reinforced handle (in the front of the grip mainly) GM+. >I’ve heard of some Avalons and Radians cracking.  Ever since though the >Avalon Plus and Elan though I haven’t heard a thing about cracks or >anything.

On that I must agree, the problem is that it took hoyt some trials and error before getting the things rights, and trials seems to be done by the custommers an not RD department.. Maybe it comes with the machining of the risers : very cheap to launch a new desig, but do not destroy the brand by sloppy products. The main quality problem is the finish of the limbs I consider it gross to have to finish the tips of the limbs with sand paper because it is cutting the string.. As I did on my carbon plus limbs (troublefree on every other aspects) Maybe acceptable on a 40$ bow not on a 300$ pair of limbs. As for performance some recently came in : Pse has cheaper limbs better looking, a new brad call WIN and WIN has another hoyt compatible pruduct that I would try. That’s what I would buy now.But not hoyt’s they are becomming overpriced. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Well enough of my babble … that’s my thoughts. >Han Su Kim

Response:

I posted a question recently about the GM and Elan models, and I want to thank everybody that responded.  Two follow-up questions howver, 1)  Assuming all else equal, what are the performance/practical ramifications of the supposedly "stiffer" Elan riser? 2) Any thoughts on Hoyt quality? Any issues/concerns I should be aware of? Thanks again! SD

Response:

Let’s continue the ISSUES not personal attacks at hand The Elan is more than double the price of a GM.  You should shoot both with the same limbs (I would recomend Carbon+ or a good set of Carbon limbs) and really see what you like.  In reality, the bow riser doesn’t cost you as much as a set of limbs can run.  You can always keep the same riser but you can easily grow out of a set of limbs.  I’m about to test shoot an Elan soon and see if it’s worth it for me to buy and give up my GM, which I love a lot, but hey I like buying the new fun stuff (part of why archery is so much fun).  I’m also getting a fantastic deal on a used Elan so I’ll see if I like it or not. As for Hoyt quality, I think it’s second to none on the FITA style recurve market.  My GM was made in 1993 and it’s still in great shape.  The LIMBS are also from 1993 and really they work great also and trust me this bow has been through some abuse.  I’ve never really heard of a GM crack ever, and I’ve heard of some Avalons and Radians cracking.  Ever since though the Avalon Plus and Elan though I haven’t heard a thing about cracks or anything.  PSE, some people joke, stand for Point Shoot Explode (but I’ve only heard of PSE’s cracking, never acutalyl seen one) and PSE has that new lineup with the Sierra as their base level and the new Intrepid which sounds pretty sweet.  The Zone I always like, and I still want to shoot one if I could afford one.  Sky’s Conquest is an AWESOME bow.  The TOP Shooter in my club, Guy Gering, who shot for the National team, shoots one and damn I’ve never seen anyone who can nail so many Xs in practice in my life, BLINDFOLDED. Well enough of my babble … that’s my thoughts. Han Su Kim

Response:

Quicks Archery/Easton/Hoyt Seminars

Question:

I’d like to take this opportunity thank Quicks archery, Easton and Hoyt for the excellent sessions and seminars recently held on the south coast of England. (Waterlooville, Portsmouth and Bournemouth). For anyone who wanted to know anything about the Avalon Plus or X10’s (not to mention a whole bunch of other topics!) neener neener neener, you missed your chance!!! At some point I’ll try to write up what I can remember (which will invariably be the more interesting bits for me!) and I’l stick them on my web pages, I’ll let you know when I eventually get round to making some changes there. Thanks of course also to Jay Barrs and Mike Gerrard (from Easton and Hoyt respectively). No question was left un-answered here! Great guys, very friendly and approachable!                             John — Hoyt Avalon Carbon Plus Easton X10 .410

Response:

writes: >I’d like to take this opportunity thank Quicks archery, Easton and Hoyt for >the excellent sessions and seminars recently held on the south coast of >England.

In case you all think John has just landed a major sponsorship deal with a certain company in Waterlooville, I’ll have to second his views independently. Archers came to this lecture from all over the UK and they weren’t disappointed.  Messrs. Barrs and Gerard displayed a depth of knowledge, patience and wit and combined these with great staying power.  They make a great double act and their enthusiasm for archery is infectious. They are travelling on to Italy – don’t miss out if you have the chance to see them. All the staff at Quicks should also give themselves a pat on the back for a job well done – especially Paul Taylor (I think??!) – the sound system was first class.  Well done Les. and more please! Andrew Rees – Ballands Bowmen, Wincanton, Somerset, England. Hoyt Avalon Mk2 (No cracks!), Carbon Plus, blah, blah, blah….

Response:

>In case you all think John has just landed a major sponsorship deal >with a certain company in Waterlooville, I’ll have to second his views >independently.

Unfortunately this is definitely true! ( I still pay my own way I have a little work to do before I become a freeloader ;o) >All the staff at Quicks should also give themselves a pat on the back for a job >well done – especially Paul Taylor (I think??!) – the sound system was first >class.

Paul isn’t Quicks staff, he’s a sponsored archer but sound is his business. He very generously did all the sound stuff free with his own sound gear.

Party game to play in groups of MK1 & MK2 Avalon shooters: …. I spy, with my little eye, something beginning with C…..                          John — Hoyt Avalon+ Carbon Plus Easton X10 .410

Response:

hoyt elan

Question:

thinking of buying a elan, anyone got one yet? any good?

Response:

I don’t feel so bad about waiting for my Zone. Some folks have had orders for their Elans since Hoyt announced the bow and haven’t received them yet. One recently switched their order to an Avalon, but it hasn’t arrived either. I told him that he should have stuck with the Elan, or that he should have ordered a Zone…         Marty Sasaki

Response:

>Some folks have had orders for >their Elans since Hoyt announced the bow and haven’t received them yet. >One recently switched their order to an Avalon, >but it hasn’t arrived

either. Strange. In the UK you can walk into a dealer and buy and Elan or an Avalon Plus over the counter, no waiting. I >told him that he should have stuck with the Elan, or that he should have ordered >a Zone…

Shouldn’t that read : "…should have ordered the Elan or got stuck with a Zone" ?  ;o) I still haven’t seen many Zones on the line performing at any level of note.                        John — Hoyt Avalon Carbon+ Easton X10 .410 Lots of cool and expensive shiny stuff

Response:

>I still haven’t seen many Zones on the line performing at any level of

note. Sorry that came out a bit bitchy, which wasn’t my intention, it was mean’t inquisitively. I only know that Jackson Fear was trying one. Nobody else seems interested?                       John

Response:

|> >I still haven’t seen many Zones on the line performing at any level of |> note. |> |> Sorry that came out a bit bitchy, which wasn’t my intention, it was mean’t |> inquisitively. I only know that Jackson Fear was trying one. Nobody else |> seems interested? I don’t think anyone took it personally. I was trying to come up with something catchy in response to your note. Couldn’t think of anything. At one point, trying a Zone was probably worth the effort. I don’t think that anyone will question that it is a fine bow, especially at $100 less than an Elan or Avalon. But now that the street price is within a few dollars of Hoyt’s machined risers, it isn’t so clear. You are right though, there are probably a small handful of folks at the high end who are shooting Zones. I wonder how much of this is performance, and how much of it is customer relationships, reputation, sponsorship, and hype.         Marty Sasaki

Response:

>>I still haven’t seen many Zones on the line performing at any level of >note. >Sorry that came out a bit bitchy, which wasn’t my intention, it was mean’t >inquisitively. I only know that Jackson Fear was trying one. Nobody else >seems interested?

…That’s ’cause his Universal is *that* much better! What’s shakin’, Stretch? L8r, Rob D.

Response:

>I don’t feel so bad about waiting for my Zone. Some folks have had orders for >their Elans since Hoyt announced the bow and haven’t received them yet. >One recently switched their order to an Avalon, but it hasn’t arrived either. >I >told him that he should have stuck with the Elan, or that he should have >ordered >a Zone… >;-) >    Marty Sasaki

i work at a archery shop and hoyt told us that thay have had more orders this year then aver. and said all of the bow wold be out by the end of this month    ARCHEYRGOD

Response:

A friend just got half her Avalon order.The limbs no riser.Told that they are having trouble with the anodizing. Another friend ordered a Zone got riser in 5 months 8 months for riser. I have a sky conquest so does my daughter it took 3 days.I feel that was to long.  :-)

Response:

>>I still haven’t seen many Zones on the line performing at any level of >note.

Vittorio Frangilli

Response:

I am confused, I know you were there and I wasn’t but in the video footage I have seen he was DEFINITELY using a PSE Universal with a Beiter longrod!? Did he use a different bow in the qualification round?                      John — Hoyt Avalon Carbon+ Easton X10 .410

Response:

><BR>

No, it was a Universal.

Response:

Terry Tiner sucks

Question:

you suck…shut up with your FAQ’s I could kick youass in archery!

Response:

Well, Terry, he can’t read and he can’t spell.  I wonder what makes him think he can kick anyone’s anything?  (and you thought I was profane!)  Looks like FAQs are a lot of work.  I think they will be appreciated by many. Regards,

Response:

you >suck…shut up with your FAQ’s I could kick youass in archery!

not if your name indicates the bow you use!!

Response:

Be nice to the poor guy.  He’s obviously feeble minded. Perry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->not if your name indicates the bow you use!!

Response:

>Be nice to the poor guy.  He’s obviously feeble minded.

A true Samaritan ) My theory is that he had an accident while sleeping with his bow (but lets not start another your Hoytster’s crapper than my Hoytster thread….. ;o) )                   John — Hoyt Avalon Carbon+ Easton X10 .410 Lots of cool and expensive shiny stuff

Response:

Aw shucks pa, you let all the hot air out of my balloon… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->My theory is that he had an accident while sleeping with his bow (but lets >not start another your Hoytster’s crapper than my Hoytster thread….. ;o) ) >                  John

Response:

>you suck…shut up with your FAQ’s I could kick youass in archery!

Ijust betyu cud. T. Tiner

Response:

Bownet page on Avalon (longish)

Question:

Stretchie recently wrote to me to ask why the Bownet website has a page that implies Natalia Valeeva used an Avalon at the World Indoor.   As anyone who was there would know, Natalia won the World Indoor and Outdoor with a Radian.    I am reproducing below an edited version of most of my reply to anybody interested, because I’m sure he’s not the only one puzzled by this HTML document on the Bownet site. Regarding your recent message: Hoyt did not actually produce the page on the Bownet site, in fact they did not see it until the archery show in Indianapolis this past weekend.   You are correct, Natalia Valeeva shot a Radian both at the World Indoor, and at the World Outdoor.  (she won both) The Bownet guys meant well, and probably didn’t know any better, they are simply trying to sell their service to manufacturers and picked Hoyt and Browning as prospective clients.  Basically they cut and pasted the page together and then came to Hoyt, saying, isn’t this neat, want to pay for it ?? As for the Avalon, I actually was the first archer to shoot an Avalon, at the Hoyt factory the same day the initial working prototype was tapped for a plunger, last April.  It was an unfinished riser but had a working lateral alignment adjustment system.   In the subsequent tests, the project leader, Bill Boynton, working with me and later, other (mostly better !) archers, found  that changing limb alignment (deliberately "twisting" the limb) affected group placement but not group size !  This, even though we did not retune after the alignment change. The decision initially was made to produce the Avalon without an alignment adjustment feature.  However, after the initial prototypes were distributed to the test team, feedback from other archers indicated they wanted the adjustment feature. I remain convinced that we recurve archers are far too concerned about limb alignment affecting accuracy.   As long as the alignment is not changing during the course of a shooting session or over time, the group size (within limits) should not be affected after the initial tuning.   This assumes the initial tuning properly compensates for the actual centershot condition of the particular bow. It is not particularly easy to get archers to believe this, and I would not believe it either had I not been involved in the test process. A quick story- several years ago, a certain left-handed Hoyt shooter was provided a bow (TD4) and proceeded to set it up and shoot it for a time.   This shooter sent the bow back, complaining that it was twisted and could not shoot good scores.   Hoyt resprayed the riser with a bright yellow color and gave it to a staff shooter, a fellow by the name of Jay Barrs, (we all get rejected stuff) who proceeded to shoot something in the mid 1320’s.   Jay heard the first shooter complaining in public about the bow he’d received… imagine the feeling of that shooter when Jay told him what he’d scored with the very same bow. I heard Jay went on to win some minor tournament in Seoul in 1988 with the same bow, but that’s another story. On the other hand, mentally, it is nice to know one has a perfectly straight bow.   It does take away a source of subconscious concern. George Tekmitchov A/C Archery Product Engineer Easton Inc. Easton Composites Division, San Diego, California USA 619-661-6691 x 143 SLC Division, Salt Lake City, Utah USA  801-539-1400 US Olympic Training Center, San Diego, California USA 619-526-6869 <<<rising, falling at force ten we twist the world and ride the wind.<<<

Response:

<SNIP, Bownet Web pages stuff> Bownet have remedied the situation by swapping the words "Avalon" for "Radian" and popping a picture of some Radians where a rather pretty Avalon once lurked!                                 Stretch — John Dickson,(aka Stretch)      Stylist Supreme, Carbon Foam 70" 45# Multimedia Guru?                Gemini Stabilisers, Spiga Carbon 30 University of Edinburgh         FF S4 9 Strand, ACE 400 L4 32.5"

Response:

See, these guys are pretty good at their job ! George Tekmitchov A/C Archery Product Engineer Easton Inc. Easton Composites Division, San Diego, California USA 619-661-6691 x 143 SLC Division, Salt Lake City, Utah USA  801-539-1400 US Olympic Training Center, San Diego, California USA 619-526-6869 <<<rising, falling at force ten we twist the world and ride the wind.<<<

Response:

: I remain convinced that we recurve archers are far too concerned about : limb alignment affecting accuracy.   As long as the alignment is not : changing during the course of a shooting session or over time, the group : size (within limits) should not be affected after the initial tuning.   : It is not particularly easy to get archers to believe this, and I would : not believe it either had I not been involved in the test process. : (Jay Barrs anecdote) I’d have to agree. I shot next to Vladimir Esheev (USSR) at the 1987 World FITA Target Champs in Adelaide when he won the Grand FITA, and also had the highest FITA round. He was shooting a ratty old Hoyt TD3, chipped blue paint, frayed string, and the bottom limb was so twisted, the string lay about 1/4" out of line.  No matter, as long as it’s consistent. — <—Stan Siatkowski – Toronto Archery Supply—<<<<< Stan, Terrie & Jen, with Mookie, Psycho, Cecil & Cocoa in Toronto

Response:

>I’d have to agree. I shot next to Vladimir Esheev (USSR) at the 1987 >World FITA Target Champs in Adelaide when he won the Grand FITA, and also >had the highest FITA round. He was shooting a ratty old Hoyt TD3, chipped >blue paint, frayed string, and the bottom limb was so twisted, the string >lay about 1/4" out of line.  No matter, as long as it’s consistent.

BUT you don’t know (you never can) how much better he might have shot with a "Insert what you think was the best bow around in 1987"???? Just because someone wins with peice of equipment A does not mean that peice of equipment A is as good as peice of equipment B. But yes of course in sentiment you’re right, it’s all down to the archer!                         Stretch PS So if you see Echeev with an Avalon with the bottom limb pocket adjusted way out to one side, you know why! — John Dickson,(aka Stretch)      Stylist Supreme, Carbon Foam 70" 45# Multimedia Guru?                Gemini Stabilisers, Spiga Carbon 30 University of Edinburgh         FF S4 9 Strand, ACE 400 L4 32.5"

Response: