6 weeks after breaking my elbow…

Question:

Last Sunday, 501 for an 18m FITA, using the training bow still. Came dead last (handicap) in the club indoor champs 2 weeks ago : ( Arm still too sore for more than 6 arrows using my Hoyt GM Missing out on practice too much! For those who missed them & are interested in the unnecessarily gory, the x-rays are available www.petersamuels.co.uk Remember, keep at least one foot on the floor, at the top of a flight of stairs!

Response:

Pete – I forget – are you working with a physical therapist, and more importantly if you are,   are you following his directions<G>  ??   bravado and not a little derring-do: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Last Sunday, 501 for an 18m FITA, using the training bow still. >Came dead last (handicap) in the club indoor champs 2 weeks ago : ( >Arm still too sore for more than 6 arrows using my Hoyt GM >Missing out on practice too much! >For those who missed them & are interested in the unnecessarily gory, >the x-rays are available www.petersamuels.co.uk >Remember, keep at least one foot on the floor, >at the top of a flight of stairs!

Response:

Hi Tex! Yes! (as far as our national health service allows – 2 Visits in 6 weeks) & Yes! (well kinda sortof! Very difficult to judge whats too much & whats not enough)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Pete – I forget – are you working with a physical therapist, and more > importantly if you are,   are you following his directions<G>  ?? > bravado and not a little derring-do: >Last Sunday, 501 for an 18m FITA, using the training bow still. >Came dead last (handicap) in the club indoor champs 2 weeks ago : ( >Arm still too sore for more than 6 arrows using my Hoyt GM >Missing out on practice too much! >For those who missed them & are interested in the unnecessarily gory, >the x-rays are available www.petersamuels.co.uk >Remember, keep at least one foot on the floor, >at the top of a flight of stairs!

Response:

>Last Sunday, 501 for an 18m FITA, using the training bow still. >Came dead last (handicap) in the club indoor champs 2 weeks ago : ( >Arm still too sore for more than 6 arrows using my Hoyt GM >Missing out on practice too much!

You may want to consider dropping your limb weight.  When I injured my shoulder I dropped weight considerably.  I borrowed some club equipment and started shooing a 25# bow and then slowly worked my way back up to 40#.   Alex     __O        _-<,_       (_)/ (_)

Response:

Center Shot Question?

Question:

Is the center shot location sacred?  Everywhere I read that the end of the shaft should be aligned so that it’s right edge is just "touching" the string, when the string is centered on the limbs (for right-handed recurve shooters).  Is this sacred?  Does anyone shift the center shot to the right or left of this recommended alignment?  What is the effect of shifting this alignment?  Is there ever a reason for shifting this alignment? Norm

Response:

 > Is the center shot location sacred?  Everywhere I read that the end  > of the shaft should be aligned so that it’s right edge is just  > "touching" the string, when the string is centered on the limbs (for  > right-handed recurve shooters).  Is this sacred?  Does anyone shift  > the center shot to the right or left of this recommended alignment?  > What is the effect of shifting this alignment?  Is there ever a  > reason for shifting this alignment?  >  > Norm  > Centering the rest is very important. If the arrow is too far off in either direction, it will fishtail. Lay a stick on the ground and push it from one end. If you push in the same direction that the stick is lying, it will go straight. If you push at an angle to the stick, it will go sideways. The same applies to an arrow. If it’s pushed at an angle to the center of the bow, it will go sideways. However…just complicate things:  An arrow flexes when you release. The tip is adjusted slightly to one side of the string to compensate for the flex. If you shoot fingers rather than with a release, the flex is much more exaggerated so the tip needs to be farther off center. Dick

Response:

Yes, I am familiar with Archers Paradox.  I have been experimenting with moving my center shot.  I can make my slightly weak shafts act like they are correctly spined by moving the center shot away from the riser (right hand shooter).  That made me wonder if anyone moves the center shot away from the recommended position for any special reasons (wrong spine, clearance or some other).  And what are these reasons? Norm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >  > Is the center shot location sacred?  Everywhere I read that the end >  > of the shaft should be aligned so that it’s right edge is just >  > "touching" the string, when the string is centered on the limbs (for >  > right-handed recurve shooters).  Is this sacred?  Does anyone shift >  > the center shot to the right or left of this recommended alignment? >  > What is the effect of shifting this alignment?  Is there ever a >  > reason for shifting this alignment? >  > Norm > Centering the rest is very important. If the arrow is too far off in > either direction, it will fishtail. Lay a stick on the ground and push > it from one end. If you push in the same direction that the stick is > lying, it will go straight. If you push at an angle to the stick, it > will go sideways. The same applies to an arrow. If it’s pushed at an > angle to the center of the bow, it will go sideways. > However…just complicate things:  An arrow flexes when you release. The > tip is adjusted slightly to one side of the string to compensate for the > flex. If you shoot fingers rather than with a release, the flex is much > more exaggerated so the tip needs to be farther off center. > Dick

Response:

Traditional English longbows have no shelf, or only a minimal shelf, so the arrow rests on the archer’s hand and is off center half the width of the bow.   The arrow deforms so much when it is leaving the bow that a little bit off center  (or a slightly warped arrow) probably makes little difference.  I have a few warped arrows that seem to shoot with the same accuracy as my straight ones ( I confess that I’m not that accurate, but can usually hit my target either with a sight or "instinctive" shooting).  I also found that helical fletching covered a multitude of sins and increased my accuracy considerably, and almost completely eliminated fishtailing.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yes, I am familiar with Archers Paradox.  I have been experimenting with > moving my center shot.  I can make my slightly weak shafts act like they are > correctly spined by moving the center shot away from the riser (right hand > shooter).  That made me wonder if anyone moves the center shot away from the > recommended position for any special reasons (wrong spine, clearance or some > other).  And what are these reasons? > Norm >  > Is the center shot location sacred?  Everywhere I read that the end >  > of the shaft should be aligned so that it’s right edge is just >  > "touching" the string, when the string is centered on the limbs (for >  > right-handed recurve shooters).  Is this sacred?  Does anyone shift >  > the center shot to the right or left of this recommended alignment? >  > What is the effect of shifting this alignment?  Is there ever a >  > reason for shifting this alignment? >  > Norm > Centering the rest is very important. If the arrow is too far off in > either direction, it will fishtail. Lay a stick on the ground and push > it from one end. If you push in the same direction that the stick is > lying, it will go straight. If you push at an angle to the stick, it > will go sideways. The same applies to an arrow. If it’s pushed at an > angle to the center of the bow, it will go sideways. > However…just complicate things:  An arrow flexes when you release. The > tip is adjusted slightly to one side of the string to compensate for the > flex. If you shoot fingers rather than with a release, the flex is much > more exaggerated so the tip needs to be farther off center. > Dick

Response:

> Yes, I am familiar with Archers Paradox.  I have been experimenting with > moving my center shot.  I can make my slightly weak shafts act like they are > correctly spined by moving the center shot away from the riser (right hand > shooter).

Moving the center shot away from the riser makes the arrow act weaker. MA

Response:

Now I’m confused.  When my center shot is set just next to the string my arrows lean a little to the left at impact, about 10-15 degrees (right hand shooter) on every shot at 10m.  When I move my CS away from the riser about 2 shaft widths all of my shots land nearly or perfectly straight.  I have shot 100’s of shots with the standard CS alignment and about 15 or so with it set further away from the riser.  I will shoot more tonight to make sure but it sure looks like moving the CS away from the riser made the arrow act stiffer.  All this is shot with a stiff plunger-no spring, just a stick. I was thinking that a part of the reason the shaft flexes more than desired is the flex it gets from the string moving sideways when it rolls off my fingers.  So I thought maybe moving the pile further that same direction might help.  Maybe I’m thinking too much<BG> Norm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yes, I am familiar with Archers Paradox.  I have been experimenting > with > moving my center shot.  I can make my slightly weak shafts act like > they are > correctly spined by moving the center shot away from the riser (right > hand > shooter). > Moving the center shot away from the riser makes the arrow act weaker. > MA

Response:

> I was thinking that a part of the reason the shaft flexes more than desired > is the flex it gets from the string moving sideways when it rolls off my > fingers.  So I thought maybe moving the pile further that same direction > might help.  Maybe I’m thinking too much<BG>

Increasing the cs makes the arrow bend more, which is logical if you think about it. Does your unfletched shafts group with the fletched? MA

Response:

How your arrow sticks into the target doesn’t reflect how it is flying.  Just my fluke you could have an arrow fishtailing 3 inches side to side but hit the target while it’s pointed straight away from you.  Paper test this animal and see how the arrow is hitting just as it clears the bow. Just my $0.02 Gord – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Now I’m confused.  When my center shot is set just next to the string my > arrows lean a little to the left at impact, about 10-15 degrees (right hand > shooter) on every shot at 10m.  When I move my CS away from the riser about > 2 shaft widths all of my shots land nearly or perfectly straight.  I have > shot 100’s of shots with the standard CS alignment and about 15 or so with > it set further away from the riser.  I will shoot more tonight to make sure > but it sure looks like moving the CS away from the riser made the arrow act > stiffer.  All this is shot with a stiff plunger-no spring, just a stick. > I was thinking that a part of the reason the shaft flexes more than desired > is the flex it gets from the string moving sideways when it rolls off my > fingers.  So I thought maybe moving the pile further that same direction > might help.  Maybe I’m thinking too much<BG> > Norm > > Yes, I am familiar with Archers Paradox.  I have been experimenting > with > > moving my center shot.  I can make my slightly weak shafts act like > they are > > correctly spined by moving the center shot away from the riser (right > hand > > shooter). > Moving the center shot away from the riser makes the arrow act weaker. > MA

Response:

Miika, I am only shooting about 10m in my garage but the bareshafts are hitting pretty close to the fletched shafts,  maybe just bit to the right.  But I probably need to shoot more of both shafts with the CS moved out to be sure. Moving the CS out did move my bareshafts to the left; not sure about the fletched shafts; again need to shoot more. Norm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I was thinking that a part of the reason the shaft flexes more than > desired > is the flex it gets from the string moving sideways when it rolls off > my > fingers.  So I thought maybe moving the pile further that same > direction > might help.  Maybe I’m thinking too much<BG> > Increasing the cs makes the arrow bend more, which is logical if you > think about it. Does your unfletched shafts group with the fletched? > MA

Response:

Gord, I have shot these animals from 5 and 10m with the normal CS and they hit the same.  The paper test from 5M shows the same, weak.  I haven’t shot the paper with the CS moved out.  Something to do tonight if I have time or tomorrow. Norm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> How your arrow sticks into the target doesn’t reflect how it is flying. Just > my fluke you could have an arrow fishtailing 3 inches side to side but hit the > target while it’s pointed straight away from you.  Paper test this animal and > see how the arrow is hitting just as it clears the bow. > Just my $0.02 > Gord > Now I’m confused.  When my center shot is set just next to the string my > arrows lean a little to the left at impact, about 10-15 degrees (right hand > shooter) on every shot at 10m.  When I move my CS away from the riser about > 2 shaft widths all of my shots land nearly or perfectly straight.  I have > shot 100’s of shots with the standard CS alignment and about 15 or so with > it set further away from the riser.  I will shoot more tonight to make sure > but it sure looks like moving the CS away from the riser made the arrow act > stiffer.  All this is shot with a stiff plunger-no spring, just a stick. > I was thinking that a part of the reason the shaft flexes more than desired > is the flex it gets from the string moving sideways when it rolls off my > fingers.  So I thought maybe moving the pile further that same direction > might help.  Maybe I’m thinking too much<BG> > Norm > > > Yes, I am familiar with Archers Paradox.  I have been experimenting > > with > > > moving my center shot.  I can make my slightly weak shafts act like > > they are > > > correctly spined by moving the center shot away from the riser (right > > hand > > > shooter). > > Moving the center shot away from the riser makes the arrow act weaker. > > MA

Response:

> I have shot these animals from 5 and 10m with the normal CS and they hit the > same.  The paper test from 5M shows the same, weak.  I haven’t shot the > paper with the CS moved out.  Something to do tonight if I have time or > tomorrow.

Alu’s or carbons? For carbons 5-10m is too short, try to shoot from 30m and see what happens. MA

Response:

ACCs.  I shot some more last night with the same results.  With the standard CS the bareshafts impact 2-5cm to the right, leaning to the left fare enuf to make contact with the fletched shafts.  When I move the CS away from the riser both shafts move to the right and the bareshafts impact almost straight.  I looks like the midpoint of the bareshafts is "on target" but the pile is to the right and nock is to the left-kinds flying a little sideways. I was just wondering if anyone shot with the CS significantly diff from the recommended and if there are times when this recommended (maybe to correct for a weak/stiff spine?).  I don’t plan to leave mine out there; I just did it to see what the affect was.  I can put my spring in and bring the shafts together and group well enuf. Norm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have shot these animals from 5 and 10m with the normal CS and they hit the > same.  The paper test from 5M shows the same, weak.  I haven’t shot the > paper with the CS moved out.  Something to do tonight if I have time or > tomorrow. > Alu’s or carbons? For carbons 5-10m is too short, try to shoot from > 30m and see what happens. > MA

Response:

You should try the paper test a lot closer.  When I was shooting under the excellent tutelage of a 5 time Canadian indoor champ, we paper tested standing just far enough from the paper that the nock end of the arrow would be clear of the riser.  Usually when using target stabilizer in the 30" neighbourhood, stabilizer was almost touching the paper. Just my $0.02 Gord – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Gord, > I have shot these animals from 5 and 10m with the normal CS and they hit the > same.  The paper test from 5M shows the same, weak.  I haven’t shot the > paper with the CS moved out.  Something to do tonight if I have time or > tomorrow. > Norm > How your arrow sticks into the target doesn’t reflect how it is flying. > Just > my fluke you could have an arrow fishtailing 3 inches side to side but hit > the > target while it’s pointed straight away from you.  Paper test this animal > and > see how the arrow is hitting just as it clears the bow. > Just my $0.02 > Gord > > Now I’m confused.  When my center shot is set just next to the string my > > arrows lean a little to the left at impact, about 10-15 degrees (right > hand > > shooter) on every shot at 10m.  When I move my CS away from the riser > about > > 2 shaft widths all of my shots land nearly or perfectly straight.  I > have > > shot 100’s of shots with the standard CS alignment and about 15 or so > with > > it set further away from the riser.  I will shoot more tonight to make > sure > > but it sure looks like moving the CS away from the riser made the arrow > act > > stiffer.  All this is shot with a stiff plunger-no spring, just a stick. > > I was thinking that a part of the reason the shaft flexes more than > desired > > is the flex it gets from the string moving sideways when it rolls off my > > fingers.  So I thought maybe moving the pile further that same direction > > might help.  Maybe I’m thinking too much<BG> > > Norm > > > > Yes, I am familiar with Archers Paradox.  I have been experimenting > > > with > > > > moving my center shot.  I can make my slightly weak shafts act like > > > they are > > > > correctly spined by moving the center shot away from the riser > (right > > > hand > > > > shooter). > > > Moving the center shot away from the riser makes the arrow act weaker. > > > MA

Response:

> Yes, I am familiar with Archers Paradox.  I have been experimenting > with > moving my center shot.  I can make my slightly weak shafts act like > they are > correctly spined by moving the center shot away from the riser (right > hand > shooter). > Moving the center shot away from the riser makes the arrow act weaker. > MA

Miika, I’m curious, is moving the CS a valid way to do fine tuning, or should it *only* ever be used as a *starting* point (*before* making pressure button changes in order to "finalise" the tuning)? -Mac

Response:

T4T and TaTa.   (TaTa is pure speculation and only useful within a very-close-to-tuned-bow, I think….   http://www.texasarchery.org/L1/DocumentsRecords.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->You should try the paper test a lot closer.  When I was shooting under the >excellent tutelage of a 5 time Canadian indoor champ, we paper tested standing >just far enough from the paper that the nock end of the arrow would be clear of >the riser.  Usually when using target stabilizer in the 30" neighbourhood, >stabilizer was almost touching the paper. >Just my $0.02 >Gord >Gord, >I have shot these animals from 5 and 10m with the normal CS and they hit the >same.  The paper test from 5M shows the same, weak.  I haven’t shot the >paper with the CS moved out.  Something to do tonight if I have time or >tomorrow. >Norm >>How your arrow sticks into the target doesn’t reflect how it is flying. >Just >>my fluke you could have an arrow fishtailing 3 inches side to side but hit >the >>target while it’s pointed straight away from you.  Paper test this animal >and >>see how the arrow is hitting just as it clears the bow. >>Just my $0.02 >>Gord >>>Now I’m confused.  When my center shot is set just next to the string my >>>arrows lean a little to the left at impact, about 10-15 degrees (right >hand >>>shooter) on every shot at 10m.  When I move my CS away from the riser >about >>>2 shaft widths all of my shots land nearly or perfectly straight.  I >have >>>shot 100’s of shots with the standard CS alignment and about 15 or so >with >>>it set further away from the riser.  I will shoot more tonight to make >sure >>>but it sure looks like moving the CS away from the riser made the arrow >act >>>stiffer.  All this is shot with a stiff plunger-no spring, just a stick. >>>I was thinking that a part of the reason the shaft flexes more than >desired >>>is the flex it gets from the string moving sideways when it rolls off my >>>fingers.  So I thought maybe moving the pile further that same direction >>>might help.  Maybe I’m thinking too much<BG> >>>Norm >>>>>Yes, I am familiar with Archers Paradox.  I have been experimenting >>>>with >>>>>moving my center shot.  I can make my slightly weak shafts act like >>>>they are >>>>>correctly spined by moving the center shot away from the riser >(right >>>>hand >>>>>shooter). >>>>Moving the center shot away from the riser makes the arrow act weaker. >>>>MA

Response:

Thanks Gord.  I have not shot the paper that close.  I’ll give it a try to see how it compares with 5m. I really didn’t start this thread with a problem, just curious about the CS position and how everyone used it. Norm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You should try the paper test a lot closer.  When I was shooting under the > excellent tutelage of a 5 time Canadian indoor champ, we paper tested standing > just far enough from the paper that the nock end of the arrow would be clear of > the riser.  Usually when using target stabilizer in the 30" neighbourhood, > stabilizer was almost touching the paper. > Just my $0.02 > Gord > Gord, > I have shot these animals from 5 and 10m with the normal CS and they hit the > same.  The paper test from 5M shows the same, weak.  I haven’t shot the > paper with the CS moved out.  Something to do tonight if I have time or > tomorrow. > Norm > > How your arrow sticks into the target doesn’t reflect how it is flying. > Just > > my fluke you could have an arrow fishtailing 3 inches side to side but hit > the > > target while it’s pointed straight away from you.  Paper test this animal > and > > see how the arrow is hitting just as it clears the bow. > > Just my $0.02 > > Gord > > > Now I’m confused.  When my center shot is set just next to the string my > > > arrows lean a little to the left at impact, about 10-15 degrees (right > hand > > > shooter) on every shot at 10m.  When I move my CS away from the riser > about > > > 2 shaft widths all of my shots land nearly or perfectly straight.  I > have > > > shot 100’s of shots with the standard CS alignment and about 15 or so > with > > > it set further away from the riser.  I will shoot more tonight to make > sure > > > but it sure looks like moving the CS away from the riser made the arrow > act > > > stiffer.  All this is shot with a stiff plunger-no spring, just a stick. > > > I was thinking that a part of the reason the shaft flexes more than > desired > > > is the flex it gets from the string moving sideways when it rolls off my > > > fingers.  So I thought maybe moving the pile further that same direction > > > might help.  Maybe I’m thinking too much<BG> > > > Norm > > > > > Yes, I am familiar with Archers Paradox.  I have been experimenting > > > > with > > > > > moving my center shot.  I can make my slightly weak shafts act like > > > > they are > > > > > correctly spined by moving the center shot away from the riser > (right > > > > hand > > > > > shooter). > > > > Moving the center shot away from the riser makes the arrow act weaker. > > > > MA

Response:

> When I move the CS away from the > riser both shafts move to the right and the bareshafts impact almost > straight.

But on the right side? > I was just wondering if anyone shot with the CS significantly diff from the > recommended and if there are times when this recommended (maybe to correct > for a weak/stiff spine?).

Plunger tuning shouldn’t (and can’t be) used to correct wrong spine. It is meant only for fine tuning. Use different point weight , different poundage and different strings to get the dynamic spine desired. Correct CS can be found with specific tuning methods for CS. MA

Response:

> Miika, I’m curious, is moving the CS a valid way to do fine tuning, or > should it *only* ever be used as a *starting* point (*before* making > pressure button changes in order to "finalise" the tuning)?

I would categorize it as a fine tunig method, the recommended* CS being a "starting point". MA *Point on the left side of the string for RH archer.

Response:

Oops, you caught my typo.  Sorry.  They both moved to the left when I moved the CS to the left (out).  Good catch. So, is it best to just leave the CS aligned with the end of shaft "touching" the string unless something weird is happening?  I can leave it there, adjust my nock, put a spring in and bring the 2 shafts together at 18m.  If you haven’t noticed I do a lot of shooting with a stiff plunger just to see what happens without that correction factor.  I probably worry too much about arrow flight and not enuf about where it hits :^0   Hey, if you can’t shoot good, at least shoot a good setup:-)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When I move the CS away from the > riser both shafts move to the right and the bareshafts impact almost > straight. > But on the right side? > I was just wondering if anyone shot with the CS significantly diff > from the > recommended and if there are times when this recommended (maybe to > correct > for a weak/stiff spine?). > Plunger tuning shouldn’t (and can’t be) used to correct wrong spine. It > is meant only for fine tuning. Use different point weight , different > poundage and different strings to get the dynamic spine desired. > Correct CS can be found with specific tuning methods for CS. > MA

Response:

> So, is it best to just leave the CS aligned with the end of shaft "touching" > the string unless something weird is happening?

I would leave it there UNLESS your tuning and testing shows otherwise. I don’t see why it would, tough. > I probably worry too much > about arrow flight and not enuf about where it hits :^0

Well, correctly tuned bow doesn’t hurt anyone;) What kind of Fita scores are you shooting? MA

Response:

OK Gord, this is way OT for this thread but I did some more paper shooting, stiff plunger.  I get the same results at 1m, 2m, 5m and 10m.  Weak spine leaning to the left.  The lean and tear get larger the further I am from the paper up to 10m.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You should try the paper test a lot closer.  When I was shooting under the > excellent tutelage of a 5 time Canadian indoor champ, we paper tested standing > just far enough from the paper that the nock end of the arrow would be clear of > the riser.  Usually when using target stabilizer in the 30" neighbourhood, > stabilizer was almost touching the paper. > Just my $0.02 > Gord > Gord, > I have shot these animals from 5 and 10m with the normal CS and they hit the > same.  The paper test from 5M shows the same, weak.  I haven’t shot the > paper with the CS moved out.  Something to do tonight if I have time or > tomorrow. > Norm > > How your arrow sticks into the target doesn’t reflect how it is flying. > Just > > my fluke you could have an arrow fishtailing 3 inches side to side but hit > the > > target while it’s pointed straight away from you.  Paper test this animal > and > > see how the arrow is hitting just as it clears the bow. > > Just my $0.02 > > Gord > > > Now I’m confused.  When my center shot is set just next to the string my > > > arrows lean a little to the left at impact, about 10-15 degrees (right > hand > > > shooter) on every shot at 10m.  When I move my CS away from the riser > about > > > 2 shaft widths all of my shots land nearly or perfectly straight.  I > have > > > shot 100’s of shots with the standard CS alignment and about 15 or so > with > > > it set further away from the riser.  I will shoot more tonight to make > sure > > > but it sure looks like moving the CS away from the riser made the arrow > act > > > stiffer.  All this is shot with a stiff plunger-no spring, just a stick. > > > I was thinking that a part of the reason the shaft flexes more than > desired > > > is the flex it gets from the string moving sideways when it rolls off my > > > fingers.  So I thought maybe moving the pile further that same direction > > > might help.  Maybe I’m thinking too much<BG> > > > Norm > > > > > Yes, I am familiar with Archers Paradox.  I have been experimenting > > > > with > > > > > moving my center shot.  I can make my slightly weak shafts act like > > > > they are > > > > > correctly spined by moving the center shot away from the riser > (right > > > > hand > > > > > shooter). > > > > Moving the center shot away from the riser makes the arrow act weaker. > > > > MA

Response:

> OK Gord, this is way OT for this thread but I did some more paper shooting, > stiff plunger.  I get the same results at 1m, 2m, 5m and 10m.  Weak spine > leaning to the left.  The lean and tear get larger the further I am from the > paper up to 10m.

Do you shoot better with stiff or weak arrow? MA

Response:

Don’t know.  Never shot a stiff arrow on this bow.  I plan to get a set of stiffer shafts this week.  I’m shooting 3L-18s.  But I think 3-28s would more suit my setup.  I draw about 29.5" and about 43#.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> OK Gord, this is way OT for this thread but I did some more paper > shooting, > stiff plunger.  I get the same results at 1m, 2m, 5m and 10m.  Weak > spine > leaning to the left.  The lean and tear get larger the further I am > from the > paper up to 10m. > Do you shoot better with stiff or weak arrow? > MA

Response:

> Don’t know.  Never shot a stiff arrow on this bow.  I plan to get a set of > stiffer shafts this week.  I’m shooting 3L-18s.  But I think 3-28s would > more suit my setup.  I draw about 29.5" and about 43#.

Snap. I’ve got 3-28’s, and while they spine right, the FOC isn’t great. Might be worth thinking about 3-39’s with 100 grain points. 7om

Response:

Tom, I’m doing 3L-18s with 100 grain piles, 1.75" Flex Fletch vanes (straight), G nocks, FF 16 strand, and a brass nockset now.  I bet 3-39s with 100 would be too stiff for me.  Maybe I could crank up the #s a bit.  What is the #s on your fingers? My current FOC with the 18s is about 11.5.  I know I could just go with the 87g piles for my 18s and come a lot closer to the correct spine but when I move outdoors the wind would wreak havoc on my already lame shooting.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Don’t know.  Never shot a stiff arrow on this bow.  I plan to get a set of > stiffer shafts this week.  I’m shooting 3L-18s.  But I think 3-28s would > more suit my setup.  I draw about 29.5" and about 43#. > Snap. I’ve got 3-28’s, and while they spine right, the FOC isn’t great. > Might be worth thinking about 3-39’s with 100 grain points. > 7om

Response:

Saint Sebastian

Question:

The archers throughout the world have a gaurdian angel: Saint Sebastian. Sebastian was found guilty of treason and was therefore sentenced with a death penalty. He was to be shot by archers… So they got him out, placed him at 18 meters, and the recurve and compound archers had a ball… Alas, they were terrible archers, they only managed to wound the poor fella’… He escaped. Later he was hunted down and beaten to death with clubs…. After he died, he decided that all archers must need a guardian angel, to help improve their skills. So he became Saint Sebastian. They day named after him is january 20th. This story may not be entirely accurate, but it’s good !!! ARCUS, a local club in Odense Denmark, has every year, close to this date, a tournament called "The Saint Sebastian Cup". The tournament is open for all archers, that are members of FITA (through their local archery-club, through their national org.) The shoot is 60 arrows on 18 meters, shorter distances for children, 12 meters for under 15 years, 8 meters for under 12. (I’m not sure about the age, but its something like that). After the 60 arrows, the top 16 shoot finals, REGARDLESS of bowtype (compound, recurve, longbow). The archers shoot their own distance, and of course compounds use the inner-ten. So we could have (and have in earlier years) a boy, 10 years old, shooting a compound at 8 meters, against a national team recurve archer at 18 meters. In 2003 the tournament is held the 18th of janurary, and if some of you lot out there in the world would like to come, send me a private email, AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, as there is only room for just around 100 archers. If you read danish, you might want to take a look at www.arcus.dk OH! Did I mention, that they use Archersoft TimeIt at the tournament… /Jens Fudge, Archersoft www.archersoft.dk software for archery

Response:

Jens: this is an ancient propaganda story. The modern version is much more consistent and runs like this (from memory, so there may be some minor inaccuracies): Sebastian was a Roman officer and a Christian. I am not sure now if he refused to participate in the emperor cult, or if he tried to win followers in the army. He was therefore sentenced to death by being shot by his own unit. But he was a popular officer, and his men were competent archers, so they only hit him where it did not matter that much. He recovered and went on in his ways, apparently determined to become a martyr. He was sentenced to death a second time, by clubbing, which he did not survive. Best regards  -  Harald. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The archers throughout the world have a gaurdian angel: Saint Sebastian. > Sebastian was found guilty of treason and was therefore sentenced with a > death penalty. He was to be shot by archers… > So they got him out, placed him at 18 meters, and the recurve and compound > archers had a ball… > Alas, they were terrible archers, they only managed to wound the poor > fella’… He escaped. > Later he was hunted down and beaten to death with clubs…. > After he died, he decided that all archers must need a guardian angel, to > help improve their skills. > So he became Saint Sebastian. > They day named after him is january 20th. > This story may not be entirely accurate, but it’s good !!! > ARCUS, a local club in Odense Denmark, has every year, close to this date, a > tournament called "The Saint Sebastian Cup". The tournament is open for all > archers, that are members of FITA (through their local archery-club, through > their national org.) > The shoot is 60 arrows on 18 meters, shorter distances for children, 12 > meters for under 15 years, 8 meters for under 12. (I’m not sure about the > age, but its something like that). > After the 60 arrows, the top 16 shoot finals, REGARDLESS of bowtype > (compound, recurve, longbow). The archers shoot their own distance, and of > course compounds use the inner-ten. > So we could have (and have in earlier years) a boy, 10 years old, shooting a > compound at 8 meters, against a national team recurve archer at 18 meters. > In 2003 the tournament is held the 18th of janurary, and if some of you lot > out there in the world would like to come, send me a private email, AS SOON > AS POSSIBLE, as there is only room for just around 100 archers. If you read > danish, you might want to take a look at www.arcus.dk > OH! Did I mention, that they use Archersoft TimeIt at the tournament… > /Jens Fudge, Archersoft > www.archersoft.dk > software for archery

Response:

Harald Yeah ok that might be right…. When Arcus (the club) holds Saint Sebastian cup, I usually "spicen" the story up a little with some fairly inaccurate stuff, like: Sebastian was sentenced to his death because of high treason, he had refused to watch the football game on Telly, and this was at that time considered to be high-treason….. /Jens Fudge, Archersoft www.archersoft.dk – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Jens: this is an ancient propaganda story. The modern version is much more > consistent and runs like this (from memory, so there may be some minor > inaccuracies): > Sebastian was a Roman officer and a Christian. I am not sure now if he > refused to participate in the emperor cult, or if he tried to win followers > in the army. He was therefore sentenced to death by being shot by his own > unit. But he was a popular officer, and his men were competent archers, so > they only hit him where it did not matter that much. He recovered and went > on in his ways, apparently determined to become a martyr. He was sentenced > to death a second time, by clubbing, which he did not survive. > Best regards  -  Harald. > The archers throughout the world have a gaurdian angel: Saint Sebastian. > Sebastian was found guilty of treason and was therefore sentenced with a > death penalty. He was to be shot by archers… > So they got him out, placed him at 18 meters, and the recurve and compound > archers had a ball… > Alas, they were terrible archers, they only managed to wound the poor > fella’… He escaped. > Later he was hunted down and beaten to death with clubs…. > After he died, he decided that all archers must need a guardian angel, to > help improve their skills. > So he became Saint Sebastian. > They day named after him is january 20th. > This story may not be entirely accurate, but it’s good !!! > ARCUS, a local club in Odense Denmark, has every year, close to this date, > a > tournament called "The Saint Sebastian Cup". The tournament is open for > all > archers, that are members of FITA (through their local archery-club, > through > their national org.) > The shoot is 60 arrows on 18 meters, shorter distances for children, 12 > meters for under 15 years, 8 meters for under 12. (I’m not sure about the > age, but its something like that). > After the 60 arrows, the top 16 shoot finals, REGARDLESS of bowtype > (compound, recurve, longbow). The archers shoot their own distance, and of > course compounds use the inner-ten. > So we could have (and have in earlier years) a boy, 10 years old, shooting > a > compound at 8 meters, against a national team recurve archer at 18 meters. > In 2003 the tournament is held the 18th of janurary, and if some of you > lot > out there in the world would like to come, send me a private email, AS > SOON > AS POSSIBLE, as there is only room for just around 100 archers. If you > read > danish, you might want to take a look at www.arcus.dk > OH! Did I mention, that they use Archersoft TimeIt at the tournament… > /Jens Fudge, Archersoft > www.archersoft.dk > software for archery

Response:

>The archers throughout the world have a gaurdian angel: Saint Sebastian.

Here in England our patron saint of archery is Saint Edmund, king and martyr. He was tied to a tree and used as target practise by the heathen Danish Vikings! — John Grove

Response:

Yeah, we Danes had loads of back in "the good old days" ….. /Jens – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The archers throughout the world have a gaurdian angel: Saint Sebastian. > Here in England our patron saint of archery is Saint Edmund, king and > martyr. He was tied to a tree and used as target practise by the heathen > Danish Vikings! > — > John Grove

Response:

Aiming woes?

Question:

Hi, I’m a beginner in archery using a recurve bow (provided by the indoor archery center). The bow I’m using doesn’t have a clicker or a sight ring, so how am I going to aim at the target? The person at the archery center told me to position the nock infront of the eye and shoot. Is this correct? I’ve only seen people positioning the nock near the chin area. But they have sight ring. I can’t seem to improve my aim, it keep going around the gold target. This is begining to frustrate me. Anyone please help me to aim properly using a recurve bow with no sight ring. Thanks in advance. WT

Response:

There are a number of ways of aiming when shooting barebow (i.e. with no sight). The basic principle is that you use the point of the arrow as the aiming pin (for want of a better word). With barebow shooting you will also usually place all your drawing fingers under the nock rather than one above and two under. One method of aiming is to gap shoot in order to get the arrows hitting where you want. Gap shooting is the process of seeing where an arrow hits in relation to where you aimed so that you can adjust where you aim in order to hit the place you want. For example, if when you aim the point of the arrow at the gold and you hit three o’clock red, then aiming at nine o’clock red will hopefully bring the arrow into the gold. Another method of adjusting the up/down aiming is by string walking. This is the process of moving the drawing fingers up and down the string below the nock which causes the bow to tilt up and down and the arrow to fly higher or lower. String walking does require you to use a consistant anchor point for you drawing hand. A third method is face walking. This is where the drawing fingers do not move up and down the string but always hook onto the same point, and the anchor point of the drawing hand move up and down the side of the face. Because of the contours of the face this method can potentially introduce some left/right aiming inconsistances.

Response:

The methods that PhilB describes are also the same techniques I have seen or read about being used.  So, I am another vote to try them. Norm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There are a number of ways of aiming when shooting barebow (i.e. with > no sight). The basic principle is that you use the point of the arrow > as the aiming pin (for want of a better word). With barebow shooting > you will also usually place all your drawing fingers under the nock > rather than one above and two under. > One method of aiming is to gap shoot in order to get the arrows > hitting where you want. Gap shooting is the process of seeing where an > arrow hits in relation to where you aimed so that you can adjust where > you aim in order to hit the place you want. For example, if when you > aim the point of the arrow at the gold and you hit three o’clock red, > then aiming at nine o’clock red will hopefully bring the arrow into > the gold. > Another method of adjusting the up/down aiming is by string walking. > This is the process of moving the drawing fingers up and down the > string below the nock which causes the bow to tilt up and down and the > arrow to fly higher or lower. String walking does require you to use a > consistant anchor point for you drawing hand. > A third method is face walking. This is where the drawing fingers do > not move up and down the string but always hook onto the same point, > and the anchor point of the drawing hand move up and down the side of > the face. Because of the contours of the face this method can > potentially introduce some left/right aiming inconsistances.

Response:

Ditto – that’s what our club coach recommended us do (we get lots of beginners being a University club).  I make that 3 votes Dave

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The methods that PhilB describes are also the same techniques I have seen or > read about being used.  So, I am another vote to try them. > Norm > There are a number of ways of aiming when shooting barebow (i.e. with > no sight). The basic principle is that you use the point of the arrow > as the aiming pin (for want of a better word). With barebow shooting > you will also usually place all your drawing fingers under the nock > rather than one above and two under. > One method of aiming is to gap shoot in order to get the arrows > hitting where you want. Gap shooting is the process of seeing where an > arrow hits in relation to where you aimed so that you can adjust where > you aim in order to hit the place you want. For example, if when you > aim the point of the arrow at the gold and you hit three o’clock red, > then aiming at nine o’clock red will hopefully bring the arrow into > the gold. > Another method of adjusting the up/down aiming is by string walking. > This is the process of moving the drawing fingers up and down the > string below the nock which causes the bow to tilt up and down and the > arrow to fly higher or lower. String walking does require you to use a > consistant anchor point for you drawing hand. > A third method is face walking. This is where the drawing fingers do > not move up and down the string but always hook onto the same point, > and the anchor point of the drawing hand move up and down the side of > the face. Because of the contours of the face this method can > potentially introduce some left/right aiming inconsistances.

Response:

The way you described is a good way of aiming when not using a sight…. If however you do want to use a sight, stick a sight on. If you do, then you are correct that the nock of the arrow is near your chin. On shooting with a sight, there are many preferences, mine is this: The sight ring should be a single large ring, with no pins, dots or whatnots in it. Allways have both eyes open. If you see two sights when having both eyes open, choose the sight to the left (for right hand archers). Dont try hard to aim, just LOOK at whatever you want to hit. Some people might say, that you have to allign the ring to one of the colours on the targetface (for target archery), but it seems to me that the body works best if you just let the body do what its good at, without letting your brain interfeer with this. Its very hard to keep your arm completely still. Its virtually impossible, so dont mind that your arm wonders about, it will on its own, with the help from your eye, do the right thing. To people who don’t really believe this I say, try tying your shoelace, and really think about what your doing…. It can be done, but if you let your fingers tie the sholace, its faster and the bow you get is very close to beeing the same as what you got the last time. These are of course just my ideas, and thoughts.. But I reckon if you ask a million archers this question, you’d probably get 1 and a half million different answers. I do however recomend, seeing you are new to archery, that you learn the basics on drawing and shooting. However strange this may seem to you, aiming is one of the least important things when shooting archery accurately. A great coach once told me the secrets of shooting really good archery. Its a three-step process: 1. Pick the damn thing up 2. Draw the damn thing back 3. Let the damn thing go It may seem as a joke, but it really does work. /Jens Fudge, Archersoft www.archersoft.dk software for archery – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > I’m a beginner in archery using a recurve bow (provided by the indoor > archery center). The bow I’m using doesn’t have a clicker or a sight ring, > so how am I going to aim at the target? The person at the archery center > told me to position the nock infront of the eye and shoot. Is this correct? > I’ve only seen people positioning the nock near the chin area. But they have > sight ring. I can’t seem to improve my aim, it keep going around the gold > target. This is begining to frustrate me. Anyone please help me to aim > properly using a recurve bow with no sight ring. > Thanks in advance. > WT

Response:

Can This Bow Be Adjusted?

Question:

Hi, I have an opportunity to obtain from a fellow club-member a Hoyt Medalist, 45# compound bow that’s in relatively good condition, at an unnamed, but guaranteed low, price.  Problem is: draw length.  It’s about an inch short for me.  Local archery shop says it can’t be adjusted.  Thought I’d ask here to make doubly-sure before giving it back. As to draw length, I’ve another question.  The way a colleague of mine at work said to measure it is to place one end of a yard-stick in the hollow of your throat and hold it straight out, between the palms of you hands, and measure the distance to the ends of your finger-tips.  Going by that, my draw length is 31".  (I’m 6′4" tall and have long arms.)  But the guy at the archery shop to which I took the bow said it’s perfect for him and he’s got a 28" draw.  But it’s only 1" short for me.  What’s the scoop?  Was my work colleague’s advice wrong? Thanks, Jim — Jim Seymour                    | PGP Public Key available at: is a spam trap.  DON’T USE IT! |

Response:

> As to draw length, I’ve another question.  The way a colleague of > mine at work said to measure it is to place one end of a yard-stick > in the hollow of your throat and hold it straight out, between the > palms of you hands, and measure the distance to the ends of your > finger-tips.  Going by that, my draw length is 31".  (I’m 6′4" tall > and have long arms.)  But the guy at the archery shop to which I took > the bow said it’s perfect for him and he’s got a 28" draw.  But it’s > only 1" short for me.  What’s the scoop?  Was my work colleague’s > advice wrong?

The "chest to fingertips" method is a good rough-and-ready guide if you are distributing club arrows to a beginners course or dispensing arrows to customers at a have-a-go session, but the only accurate method of deciding draw (and hence arrow) length is to draw up a graduated arrow on the bow that you actually intend to shoot. For a complete beginner it is a good idea to start with overlong arrows since draw length almost always increases as strength and technique improve with practice. Best wishes Chris

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > I have an opportunity to obtain from a fellow club-member a Hoyt > Medalist, 45# compound bow that’s in relatively good condition, at an > unnamed, but guaranteed low, price.  Problem is: draw length.  It’s > about an inch short for me.  Local archery shop says it can’t be > adjusted.  Thought I’d ask here to make doubly-sure before giving it > back. > As to draw length, I’ve another question.  The way a colleague of > mine at work said to measure it is to place one end of a yard-stick > in the hollow of your throat and hold it straight out, between the > palms of you hands, and measure the distance to the ends of your > finger-tips.  Going by that, my draw length is 31".  (I’m 6′4" tall > and have long arms.)  But the guy at the archery shop to which I took > the bow said it’s perfect for him and he’s got a 28" draw.  But it’s > only 1" short for me.  What’s the scoop?  Was my work colleague’s > advice wrong?

My method – feel free to laugh and/or take the Disney. Start by standing normally. Your arm will probably be naturally bent a bit. Without bending or straightening it, bring it up to shooting level – level with your shoulders. The distance from reference point (probably level in a vertical plane with the corner of your mouth) to the web of skin between thumb and forefinger is your draw length. (Mine kicks out about 29" like this, and that sounds right.) Cheers 7om > Thanks, > Jim > — > Jim Seymour                    | PGP Public Key available at:

http://www.uk.pgp.net/pgpnet/pks-commands.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> is a spam trap.  DON’T USE IT! |

Response:

As to the real question that you asked . This bow can be adjusted if you can find some more cams for it. And I hate to tell you that you could stand a better chance of finding snowballs in hell quicker. This is an older bow and parts are going to be hard to come by. If it is that much too short for you I would take it back and look further for a bow that really fits you. Jane

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > I have an opportunity to obtain from a fellow club-member a Hoyt > Medalist, 45# compound bow that’s in relatively good condition, at an > unnamed, but guaranteed low, price.  Problem is: draw length.  It’s > about an inch short for me.  Local archery shop says it can’t be > adjusted.  Thought I’d ask here to make doubly-sure before giving it > back. > As to draw length, I’ve another question.  The way a colleague of > mine at work said to measure it is to place one end of a yard-stick > in the hollow of your throat and hold it straight out, between the > palms of you hands, and measure the distance to the ends of your > finger-tips.  Going by that, my draw length is 31".  (I’m 6′4" tall > and have long arms.)  But the guy at the archery shop to which I took > the bow said it’s perfect for him and he’s got a 28" draw.  But it’s > only 1" short for me.  What’s the scoop?  Was my work colleague’s > advice wrong? > Thanks, > Jim > — > Jim Seymour                    | PGP Public Key available at:

http://www.uk.pgp.net/pgpnet/pks-commands.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> is a spam trap.  DON’T USE IT! |

Response:

> As to the real question that you asked . This bow can be adjusted if you can > find some more cams for it. And I hate to tell you that you could stand a > better chance of finding snowballs in hell quicker.

The colleague at work that suggested the draw-length measurement technique told me pretty much the same thing.  Plus he said they’d be expen$ive. >                                                     This is an older bow > and parts are going to be hard to come by. If it is that much too short for > you I would take it back and look further for a bow that really fits you.

He said that, too.  Guess I have my answer.  Too bad.  Haven’t used it yet.  It’s just been sitting in the corner so far.  But even then: I’ve become kind of attached to it.  Ah well…  guess it’ll be a while more before I’ll be trying my hand at archery. Thanks for the follow-up, Jane.  And thanks also to Chris and Tom for their comments. Regards, Jim — Jim Seymour                    | PGP Public Key available at: is a spam trap.  DON’T USE IT! |

Response:

Buying an arrow saw

Question:

Hi and sorry for cross posting. My questions are here: Where can we buy an arrow saw? The shop should be in EU: then there is no tax, VAT, etc. problems. And the input voltage of the engine must be 220-240V, i.e. European voltage. I found this site: http://www.alternativess.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/00249.4.1064063001470… but I’m wondering if there are other shops around (e.g. in UK, Germany, NL, Italy, etc.)? Thanks!    Jari

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi and sorry for cross posting. > My questions are here: > Where can we buy an arrow saw? > The shop should be in EU: then there is no tax, VAT, etc. problems. > And the input voltage of the engine must be 220-240V, > i.e. European voltage. > I found this site: > http://www.alternativess.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/00249.4.1064063001470… > but I’m wondering if there are other shops around (e.g. in UK, Germany, > NL, Italy, etc.)?

The site you give above _is_ in the UK, as is Quicks: <http://www.quicks.com/pdfa/quick_97.pdf> — Chris Hatt USER ERROR: Replace user and press any key to continue…

Response:

Have you checked Van Buggenum Sports in NL? http://www.vbs-archery.nl/ There is download link to pricelist (.pdf-file) in top of the page (looks like picture saying "Download pricelist in pdf"). They seem to have lot to offer for archers… I’ve found this link from http://koti.mbnet.fi/archery/enter.htm (sorry others, finnish only Where do you live in Finland? I’m searching for compound bow, and maybe ordering it from different EU country, so… Jouko

> Hi and sorry for cross posting. > My questions are here: > Where can we buy an arrow saw? > The shop should be in EU: then there is no tax, VAT, etc. problems. > And the input voltage of the engine must be 220-240V, > i.e. European voltage. > I found this site:

http://www.alternativess.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/00249.4.1064063001470… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> but I’m wondering if there are other shops around (e.g. in UK, Germany, > NL, Italy, etc.)? > Thanks! >    Jari

Response:

You can make an arrow saw with a dremmel tool mounted on a 4×4 and mount a yard stick for measurements and mount a movable stop for cutting different length arrows. Don’t know how much dremmel is but the wood and hardware involved won’t cost much at all. Jane

> Hi and sorry for cross posting. > My questions are here: > Where can we buy an arrow saw? > The shop should be in EU: then there is no tax, VAT, etc. problems. > And the input voltage of the engine must be 220-240V, > i.e. European voltage. > I found this site:

http://www.alternativess.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/00249.4.1064063001470… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> but I’m wondering if there are other shops around (e.g. in UK, Germany, > NL, Italy, etc.)? > Thanks! >    Jari

Response:

Wind tunnels

Question:

> Rotation while oscillating is an intriguing problem…. i’m gonna have to think > about a way to do that one….

Its kind of "Prrrrrrr!" with "Boioioioing!" at the same time followed by "Thwack!" if you get it right…. Zolan    :-D

Response:

> Rotation while oscillating is an intriguing problem…. i’m gonna have to > think > about a way to do that one…. > Its kind of "Prrrrrrr!" with "Boioioioing!" at the same time followed by > "Thwack!" if you get it right…. > Zolan    :-D

kinda like this? http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/pipexdsl/o/aoon40/mighter/index.htm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Rotation while oscillating is an intriguing problem…. i’m gonna have > to > think > > about a way to do that one…. > Its kind of "Prrrrrrr!" with "Boioioioing!" at the same time followed by > "Thwack!" if you get it right…. > Zolan    :-D > kinda like this? > http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/pipexdsl/o/aoon40/mighter/index.htm

I used to shoot those Jazz arows from Quicks…trouble aren’t they? (I got more pens that way…..) Zolan

Response:

Rotation while oscillating is an intriguing problem…. i’m gonna have to think about a way to do that one…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > depends how you want to attack this problem. micro-time elapse photography > equipment can give you the frequency (Hz) of oscillation of the arrow. Now, if > you want to see how this oscillation affects the flight and fluid, you can > simulate this this oscillation by supporting the arrow in front, back, and > centroid. The oscillations of an arrow quickly become hyperbolic shaped, and by > moving these supports as a function of time, that will simulate the oscillation. > As for measuring useful things,    (static and dynamic pressure), one would have > to fit the arrow itself with pitot tubes (the ones i use aren’t small enough, > but i believe they are out there for micro-pumps, etc.) that are lined up > perfectly tangent to the flow to be measured, ususally done in cartesian > coordinates. These would have to be then fitted to a pressure transducer, which > wuold be then hooked up to a Data Acquisition Card then to a computer with time > dependent data acquisition software (LabView for instance). So, whether or not i > think it can be done, yes. Do i think its too much of a pain in the arse? quite > possibly when you could simulate an equivalent system on a computer. > Just some thoughts. > Oh, you wouldn’t need a boeing tunnel, just any tunnel is astronomically > expensive. The big three auto makers in the United States (GM, Ford, > DaimlerChrysler) don’t all have their own wind tunnels because the cost of > making and maintaining one that is large enough to do large scale testing is > outrageous. But in these velocities we are talkiing about (around 300 miles per > hour, even higher with some compounds), if you were to try to test in a tiny > cross sectional area, the viscous forces from the walls would force a boundary > layer across nearly the entire test section, which would lead to premature > turbulence, and give non consistent results as the flow itself changes with > time. I’ll do some equating and see how large a boundary layer for this flow > would be over a flat plate. > > Even though this FLL, probably not a true wind tunnel, though basically > the same > > uses, would be small, the price is still quite large. The venturi effect > can be > > used to speed up the air flow, but is limited by the increasing size of > the > > boundary layer and the turbulence using this would create. cascading > baffles > > would probably have to be used, maybe even several cascades… plus some > room in > > order for the flow to "dampen" (dont’ know how to explain this phenomena). > > Steve > > Sorry bout it being off topic > > > Off topic I know but an arrow would only need a very small wind tunnel, > as > > > the venturi effect can be used to up the wind speed in the area where > the > > > arrow would be. Coventry University used this effect when helping with > the > > > early design of Thrust SSC. The model is tiny! > > > Boyracer. > Yep…still can’t understand why you’d need a "boeing" size tunnel, kind of > dificult to see whats happening to an arrow in the middle of a $nK/hour > tunnel n metres wide, when you can fit the whole thing, life-size, in a > small highspeed tunnel. But even more questionable is the way you would > analyse what you see…with an aircraft there is some range of > inclinations/attitudes in the air flow which define the flight envelope. > When an arrow flies it is rarely flying straight in the air flow but also it > is flexing and rotating. Unless you could actually measure it during a real > free flight (telemetry built in!), how could a tethered arrow give any > useful information? Or can you suggest how to simulate rotation and flex > over the flight time? > Zolan

Response:

depends how you want to attack this problem. micro-time elapse photography equipment can give you the frequency (Hz) of oscillation of the arrow. Now, if you want to see how this oscillation affects the flight and fluid, you can simulate this this oscillation by supporting the arrow in front, back, and centroid. The oscillations of an arrow quickly become hyperbolic shaped, and by moving these supports as a function of time, that will simulate the oscillation. As for measuring useful things,    (static and dynamic pressure), one would have to fit the arrow itself with pitot tubes (the ones i use aren’t small enough, but i believe they are out there for micro-pumps, etc.) that are lined up perfectly tangent to the flow to be measured, ususally done in cartesian coordinates. These would have to be then fitted to a pressure transducer, which wuold be then hooked up to a Data Acquisition Card then to a computer with time dependent data acquisition software (LabView for instance). So, whether or not i think it can be done, yes. Do i think its too much of a pain in the arse? quite possibly when you could simulate an equivalent system on a computer. Just some thoughts. Oh, you wouldn’t need a boeing tunnel, just any tunnel is astronomically expensive. The big three auto makers in the United States (GM, Ford, DaimlerChrysler) don’t all have their own wind tunnels because the cost of making and maintaining one that is large enough to do large scale testing is outrageous. But in these velocities we are talkiing about (around 300 miles per hour, even higher with some compounds), if you were to try to test in a tiny cross sectional area, the viscous forces from the walls would force a boundary layer across nearly the entire test section, which would lead to premature turbulence, and give non consistent results as the flow itself changes with time. I’ll do some equating and see how large a boundary layer for this flow would be over a flat plate. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Even though this FLL, probably not a true wind tunnel, though basically > the same > uses, would be small, the price is still quite large. The venturi effect > can be > used to speed up the air flow, but is limited by the increasing size of > the > boundary layer and the turbulence using this would create. cascading > baffles > would probably have to be used, maybe even several cascades… plus some > room in > order for the flow to "dampen" (dont’ know how to explain this phenomena). > Steve > Sorry bout it being off topic > > Off topic I know but an arrow would only need a very small wind tunnel, > as > > the venturi effect can be used to up the wind speed in the area where > the > > arrow would be. Coventry University used this effect when helping with > the > > early design of Thrust SSC. The model is tiny! > > Boyracer. > Yep…still can’t understand why you’d need a "boeing" size tunnel, kind of > dificult to see whats happening to an arrow in the middle of a $nK/hour > tunnel n metres wide, when you can fit the whole thing, life-size, in a > small highspeed tunnel. But even more questionable is the way you would > analyse what you see…with an aircraft there is some range of > inclinations/attitudes in the air flow which define the flight envelope. > When an arrow flies it is rarely flying straight in the air flow but also it > is flexing and rotating. Unless you could actually measure it during a real > free flight (telemetry built in!), how could a tethered arrow give any > useful information? Or can you suggest how to simulate rotation and flex > over the flight time? > Zolan

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Even though this FLL, probably not a true wind tunnel, though basically the same > uses, would be small, the price is still quite large. The venturi effect can be > used to speed up the air flow, but is limited by the increasing size of the > boundary layer and the turbulence using this would create. cascading baffles > would probably have to be used, maybe even several cascades… plus some room in > order for the flow to "dampen" (dont’ know how to explain this phenomena). > Steve > Sorry bout it being off topic > Off topic I know but an arrow would only need a very small wind tunnel, as > the venturi effect can be used to up the wind speed in the area where the > arrow would be. Coventry University used this effect when helping with the > early design of Thrust SSC. The model is tiny! > Boyracer.

Yep…still can’t understand why you’d need a "boeing" size tunnel, kind of dificult to see whats happening to an arrow in the middle of a $nK/hour tunnel n metres wide, when you can fit the whole thing, life-size, in a small highspeed tunnel. But even more questionable is the way you would analyse what you see…with an aircraft there is some range of inclinations/attitudes in the air flow which define the flight envelope. When an arrow flies it is rarely flying straight in the air flow but also it is flexing and rotating. Unless you could actually measure it during a real free flight (telemetry built in!), how could a tethered arrow give any useful information? Or can you suggest how to simulate rotation and flex over the flight time? Zolan

Response:

Even though this FLL, probably not a true wind tunnel, though basically the same uses, would be small, the price is still quite large. The venturi effect can be used to speed up the air flow, but is limited by the increasing size of the boundary layer and the turbulence using this would create. cascading baffles would probably have to be used, maybe even several cascades… plus some room in order for the flow to "dampen" (dont’ know how to explain this phenomena). Steve Sorry bout it being off topic – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Off topic I know but an arrow would only need a very small wind tunnel, as > the venturi effect can be used to up the wind speed in the area where the > arrow would be. Coventry University used this effect when helping with the > early design of Thrust SSC. The model is tiny! > Boyracer.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> To build a reputable wind tunnel, the costs are astronomical…. I doubt that > there is too much benefit to arrow companies to using such places, because > testing time is ridiculously expensive. Now, if they used a FLL(bascially a > mini-wind tunnel), possibly they can get some use for it. Most of the physical > phenomena behind arrow flight and design can be calculated and or represented in > simulations (Fluent, StarCD, etc.). Not saying wind tunnels wouldn’t be cool to > mess around in. The largest one in the world is in the US, I believe its owned > by boeing, but not too sure, i’m sure they rent it out to whoever can pay for > it. This wind tunnel uses about the same electricity as a city of 250000 people. > Of course, thats an extreme, but it gives you some idea. When you consider the > fact that the arrow is traveling around 300 mph, it would take a substantial > tunnel to accurately simulate the arrow flight, especially in order to make that > kind of flow laminar in the arrows direction. Like a lot of other things, arrows > are probably designed using intuition, hand calculations, and estimates. Maybe > my idea of a wind tunnel differs from yours, if so i’m sorry for the rant.It > would be kinda cool to visually see the boundary layer, vortex shedding, and > turbulence generated by it, but these can also be simulated using a reynolds > number correlation.

Off topic I know but an arrow would only need a very small wind tunnel, as the venturi effect can be used to up the wind speed in the area where the arrow would be. Coventry University used this effect when helping with the early design of Thrust SSC. The model is tiny! Boyracer.

Response:

Hi all, Further to my posts in regard to wishlists for a national archery centre, i’m now on the look out for more specific details, particularly in regard to wind tunnels, something a number of people suggested: Specifically; 1. what are the benefits to archers, will club shooters improve much by using one? 2. are there many tunnels in the uk for this purpose? 3. do many arrow manufacturers have these as standard and if so, any in the uk? Any help much appreciated, regards, Simon Rispin

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi all, > Further to my posts in regard to wishlists for a national archery centre, > i’m now on the look out for more specific details, particularly in regard to > wind tunnels, something a number of people suggested: > Specifically; > 1. what are the benefits to archers, will club shooters improve much by > using one? > 2. are there many tunnels in the uk for this purpose? > 3. do many arrow manufacturers have these as standard and if so, any in the > uk? > Any help much appreciated, > regards, > Simon Rispin

I know a club whose field lies by one of the most high-tech wind tunnels in europe. What do you expect the archer is going to do in this tunnel? ( I can, almost, imagine that an arrow manufacturer might just have a use for one…ocassionally) Zolan

Response:

Mabe this could be a new "extreme" sport. You stand in the wind tunnel with your back to the target.  Fire into the wind and try to duck when the arrow comes back for the target.               What’s the worst that could happen?

Response:

> Mabe this could be a new "extreme" sport. > You stand in the wind tunnel with your back to the target.  Fire into the wind > and try to duck when the arrow comes back for the target. >               What’s the worst that could happen?

Someone throws a bottle of Dr Pepper at you. Tom

Response:

To build a reputable wind tunnel, the costs are astronomical…. I doubt that there is too much benefit to arrow companies to using such places, because testing time is ridiculously expensive. Now, if they used a FLL(bascially a mini-wind tunnel), possibly they can get some use for it. Most of the physical phenomena behind arrow flight and design can be calculated and or represented in simulations (Fluent, StarCD, etc.). Not saying wind tunnels wouldn’t be cool to mess around in. The largest one in the world is in the US, I believe its owned by boeing, but not too sure, i’m sure they rent it out to whoever can pay for it. This wind tunnel uses about the same electricity as a city of 250000 people. Of course, thats an extreme, but it gives you some idea. When you consider the fact that the arrow is traveling around 300 mph, it would take a substantial tunnel to accurately simulate the arrow flight, especially in order to make that kind of flow laminar in the arrows direction. Like a lot of other things, arrows are probably designed using intuition, hand calculations, and estimates. Maybe my idea of a wind tunnel differs from yours, if so i’m sorry for the rant.It would be kinda cool to visually see the boundary layer, vortex shedding, and turbulence generated by it, but these can also be simulated using a reynolds number correlation. Sorry, its very late at night and I tend to ramble on and on when i’m tired. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi all, > Further to my posts in regard to wishlists for a national archery centre, > i’m now on the look out for more specific details, particularly in regard to > wind tunnels, something a number of people suggested: > Specifically; > 1. what are the benefits to archers, will club shooters improve much by > using one? > 2. are there many tunnels in the uk for this purpose? > 3. do many arrow manufacturers have these as standard and if so, any in the > uk? > Any help much appreciated, > regards, > Simon Rispin

Response:

Archery netting / curtain?

Question:

Hello, My son is new to archery and I’d like to make an area for him to practice, but we don’t have an area with room for when he misses the target, and hay bails are not a good solution around here. I have seen archery netting and have been told of something like a kevlar netting for stopping arrows. Can anyone advise if such things work?  Is there a kevlar stop?   Any advise would be appreciated. Thanks

Response:

> Can anyone advise if such things work?  Is there a kevlar stop?

Don’t know about kevlar, the netting I’ve seen is usually nylon.  The trick is that it has to be free hanging and a fine enough mesh so as not to allow an arrow pass through.  The arrow strikes the netting and has to move the entire mass.  People have used carpet and many other types of material.

Response:

There are curtains you can purchase as backstops – they are a tight mesh but the critical factor is that they hang loosely with enough room behind to "give" when an arrow hits them so that the arrow doesn’t penetrate the curtain.   They are not cheap, though. For example, the link http://www.thebowman.com/mall/cat_targetBackDrop1.asp shows a 10 by 10 foot net to be around 150 bucks Yew Ess. Often you can make a backstop out of sections of used carpet, even use them for the actual target and the target buttress.   Check the archery links page and the Documents page of TSAA.  link is below. ALSO, please check the JOAD page at http://www.joad.org .  MANY useful docs for you if you are starting out….  and good luck ! Ron > Hello, > My son is new to archery and I’d like to make an area for him to > practice, but we don’t have an area with room for when he misses the > target, and hay bails are not a good solution around here. > I have seen archery netting and have been told of something like a > kevlar netting for stopping arrows. > Can anyone advise if such things work?  Is there a kevlar stop? > Any advise would be appreciated. > Thanks

– TexARC publicize the sport of Archery!  http://www.texasarchery.org and put your name in body of message.

Response:

What rest??

Question:

Its time to upgrade my arrow rest, but what too?? Do I get a magnetic, a flipper, a bolt on or a stick on? I’ve been using one of the horrible stick on hook types but changed bow to an Avalon plus, shooting ICS Extreme carbons, so feel its time to change. Don’t mind about the cost seeing as the most expensive rest I’ve seen is about

sholder extension

Question:

One thing that has taken up a lot of my training time is shoulder extension… Looking at the Koreans, they seem to have quite a low extended shoulder…. whilst some of the Europeans and Americans [Rick McKinney comingto mind] seem to have quite a high but still extended shoulder.. The thing is with a high extension I find it hard to "lock" the shoulder in position, and the right scapula can push my left one out of line upon release… the low extension is easier to lock, but I find it is harder to get it right and keep it right, and I seem to fatigue quicker when shooting this way… Opinions [For those that done know me Im an olympic recurve shooter] Thanks Ewan — Ewan Oughton [0143324] 2nd Year B.Sc. Comp. Sys. http://www.10xshot.com — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Hi Ewan – This shoulder alignment is both important, and difficult to monitor.   You really need a friend watching carefully or using a video camera so that you can check yourself.  At Loyd Brown’s direction I’ve been working with Lindsey on this a LOT and it’s making a big, big difference in her consistency. The Archery Anatomy book is a very good reference for this alignment that you mention.  My take on it is that you want to neutralize your shoulder’s position so that upon release, there is not a group of muscles that "sproing" from loss of stress.  In other words, if your shoulder position is set where the BONES take the majority of stress, and the leftover stress is evenly distibuted AROUND the joint, then on release no motion of left/right,up/down occurs, only a slight  extending movement of the entire arm (and therefore slightly the shoulder) towards the target. If your shoulder is not tucked in or set right, then it will make an obvious movement upon loosing of the arrow.   One of the more common mistakes archers make that affects the shoulder also, is "laying back" as they draw in an attempt to get to click and this tends to raise that bow shoulder out of center. I also gather that it’s very difficult to get the shoulder into proper place if your other shoulder and the spine are not in proper alignment.  Again, that book shows it well, as does Rick McKinney’s book. One could say there is a "sweet spot" that you will recognize when you find it, I think.  Have your friend watch and tell you where your bow shoulder goes when the loose happens, and work from there.  Of course, while you are working on this, don’t worry about where the arrow hits relative to the gold.  Focus on the shoulder for a bit.  Once you have learned how to consistently stabilize your shoulder, you can then look back to where the arrow hits the target TexARC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > One thing that has taken up a lot of my training time is shoulder > extension… > Looking at the Koreans, they seem to have quite a low extended shoulder…. > whilst some of the Europeans and Americans [Rick McKinney comingto mind] > seem to have quite a high but still extended shoulder.. The thing is with a > high extension I find it hard to "lock" the shoulder in position, and the > right scapula can push my left one out of line upon release… the low > extension is easier to lock, but I find it is harder to get it right and > keep it right, and I seem to fatigue quicker when shooting this way… > Opinions > [For those that done know me Im an olympic recurve shooter] > Thanks > Ewan > — > Ewan Oughton [0143324] > 2nd Year B.Sc. Comp. Sys. > http://www.10xshot.com > — > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

– TexARC publicize the sport of Archery! http://www.texasarchery.org Outgoing messages scanned for viruses by Nortons AV 2002

Response:

One of the things I’ve learned after 50 years of archery competition is that no two people shoot exactly the same. Your own body configuration is the principle factor, and while it is possible to force your shoulder position to mimic someone else’s, you will ultimately find it best to find your own natural position. You might look at page 82 of Archery Anatomy by Ray Rexford. The Koreans have adopted the low shoulder position because it offers many people a good bone lineup to aid in holding steady. The Korean coaches are utilitarian thinkers; if it works – do it! Good luck, Jerry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> One thing that has taken up a lot of my training time is shoulder > extension… > Looking at the Koreans, they seem to have quite a low extended shoulder…. > whilst some of the Europeans and Americans [Rick McKinney comingto mind] > seem to have quite a high but still extended shoulder.. The thing is with a > high extension I find it hard to "lock" the shoulder in position, and the > right scapula can push my left one out of line upon release… the low > extension is easier to lock, but I find it is harder to get it right and > keep it right, and I seem to fatigue quicker when shooting this way… > Opinions > [For those that done know me Im an olympic recurve shooter] > Thanks > Ewan > — > Ewan Oughton [0143324] > 2nd Year B.Sc. Comp. Sys. > http://www.10xshot.com > — > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response: