Once again: Draw Stop
Question:
Hi Archers, again my question. I am looking for a draw stof for a MARTIN Scepter with wooden XR limbs and Tri Draw Flite Wheels. After a hint from this group, I tried this plastic stuff on the cables. But I can screw the "screw" like a devil, it does not hold. When I hold my back tension in the moment I will "release", the draw stop goes 1mm or 2mm. Any other hints? — Bye, Sven
Response:
: I am looking for a draw stof for a MARTIN Scepter : with wooden XR limbs and Tri Draw Flite Wheels. There are a few things to try. One is the Sure-lok clicker which is supposed to be made out of metal and might be better than the plastic stops. Don Kudlacheck (I hope that I spelled that correctly) can make a set of cams that will work on the XR limbs. These cams have a hard stop. You might try some Wallbangers, which are gizmos that you attach to your wheels that provide a solid stop. I think that with the setup you have (which is the same as my setup) you will have to move the y-cables to the outside of the limbs rather than right next to the wheel in order to make room for the Wallbangers. Depending on the price of the Wallbangers, I might try this, or possibly a set of Dpn K’s cams. Marty Sasaki
Response:
>Don Kudlacheck (I hope that I spelled that correctly) can make a set >of cams that will work on the XR limbs. These cams have a hard stop.
Any idea where I can find him? I am in Germany. Has Don an own web site? >You might try some Wallbangers, which are gizmos that you attach to >your wheels that provide a solid stop. I think that with the setup you >have (which is the same as my setup) you will have to move the >y-cables to the outside of the limbs rather than right next to the >wheel in order to make room for the Wallbangers.
Never heard before. Any URL where I can see that stuff? — Bye, Sven
Response:
Try Quicks web-site to view the wallbangers, and maybe contact Kudlacek via Alternative Sporting Services who market other items of his. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Don Kudlacheck (I hope that I spelled that correctly) can make a set >of cams that will work on the XR limbs. These cams have a hard stop. >Any idea where I can find him? >I am in Germany. Has Don an own web site? >You might try some Wallbangers, which are gizmos that you attach to >your wheels that provide a solid stop. I think that with the setup you >have (which is the same as my setup) you will have to move the >y-cables to the outside of the limbs rather than right next to the >wheel in order to make room for the Wallbangers. >Never heard before. Any URL where I can see that stuff? >– >Bye, >Sven
Response:
I don’t think you could mount Wallbangers on Flite wheels. And on XR limbs cams would be risky. Check correctly your draw lenght, because with wheels generally the stop is no longer needed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Try Quicks web-site to view the wallbangers, and maybe contact Kudlacek via >Alternative Sporting Services who market other items of his. >>Don Kudlacheck (I hope that I spelled that correctly) can make a set >>of cams that will work on the XR limbs. These cams have a hard stop. >Any idea where I can find him? >I am in Germany. Has Don an own web site? >>You might try some Wallbangers, which are gizmos that you attach to >>your wheels that provide a solid stop. I think that with the setup you >>have (which is the same as my setup) you will have to move the >>y-cables to the outside of the limbs rather than right next to the >>wheel in order to make room for the Wallbangers. >Never heard before. Any URL where I can see that stuff? >– >Bye, >Sven
Response:
>Check correctly your draw lenght, because with wheels generally the stop is >no longer needed.
Please, could you explain that? Sometimes I get the feeling, I overdraw the bow. — Bye, Sven
Response:
: I don’t think you could mount Wallbangers on Flite wheels. I think this is wrong. The folks who make Wallbangers, Vital Sight, sent me some information and a full size drawing/tracing of the HTPC walbanger, for Hoyt PerformaCam, PowerCam, CommandCam 98 & 99, and Accuwheels. Mounting the wallbanger requires a hole in the cam to receive a screw. The flite wheel has two bushings, one for 65% and one for 50% letoff. It looks like the bushing can be used with a threaded insert (provided with the wallbanger). It will be necessary to move the Y-yoke attachments to the outside of the limbs (they are right next to the wheels right now), which would mean longer axels and some spacers to properly place the wheel. I’m trying to contact these folks to find out about cost and whether I can return the wallbangers if they don’t fit. : And on XR limbs cams would be risky. Don Kudlacheck recommends a fairly mild cam. He has sold a bunch of them and hasn’t had any complaints, at least that’s what he says. Using something like a Fury cam is probably a bad idea though. If it was a useful combination Martin would probably have marketed a bow with Fury cams and XR limbs. : Check correctly your draw lenght, because with wheels generally the stop is : no longer needed. This makes no sense to me at all. The wheels have a very wide valley with slowly rising back wall. I haven’t measured it, but I know that my draw length could vary over an inch withoud strict attention to what I was doing. This variation means that a different amount of energy was transmitted to the arrow during differnt shots. It also means, which is more important, that your form can change a lot from shot to shot. A solid wall means that you can’t pull any further and your draw length is the same. It also allows you to set up a little (or a lot) more back tension before releasing the arrow, which will result in a cleaner release. This probably doesn’t matter so much indoors or in short range hunting situations, but at 90 meters it could result in a big difference in score… Marty Sasaki
Response:
First, if you could go to the nearest PRO (not any other) shop and get your bow set to your draw lenght. If not, you can: On flite wheels you have three slots, giving 3" between them. If your pigtail cable (the one that connects the string) is on the middle slot you can go 1" more or 1" less in draw lenght. You feel to overdraw the bow so you need longer draw length, i. e., more cable around the wheel. Go to the Martin handbook and see what they say about adjusting draw length. You’ll need a bow press, and good know how to do the adjustment. If you don’t have any slot to go, you have two options. Buying biger wheels or, if you use a release a longer rope. With round wheels, with their longer valley it’s not need a draw stop. It’s difficult to explain in e-mail the proceedings to change draw lenght. The best advice I can give you is see someone that could do the job, because putting draw stops in your case is only covering a baddly setup bow. Best regards Pedro
Response:
>I think this is wrong.
I can agree with you. Anyone with some skill and good devices good even make wheels, so of course you could what you want, but it’s not a simple and direct way. Remember that Wallbangers aren’t made for flite wheels, the most close are Accuwheel. >Don Kudlacheck recommends a fairly mild cam.
Flite wheels are already soft cams. >: Check correctly your draw lenght, because with wheels generally the stop is >: no longer needed. >This makes no sense to me at all.
When you shoot a compound good form is vital. Trying to put draw stops to "stop" form variations is a bad idea, and groups will suffer. Best regards Pedro
Response:
: First, if you could go to the nearest PRO (not any other) shop and get your : bow set to your draw lenght. First, it doesn’t take a pro shop to set draw length correctly. Several books have been written on how to set up compound bows. Many people have written articles here in the news groups giving hints and such. It does take access to a bow press of some type. : On flite wheels you have three slots, giving 3" between them. If your : pigtail cable (the one that connects the string) is on the middle slot you : can go 1" more or 1" less in draw lenght. You can go further and put one wheel in one slot and another wheel in a different slot. In fact, that’s the way my bow is set up currently. Oh, and I lengthened my string slightly. : With round wheels, with their longer valley it’s not need a draw stop. : It’s difficult to explain in e-mail the proceedings to change draw lenght. : The best advice I can give you is see someone that could do the job, because : putting draw stops in your case is only covering a baddly setup bow. Of course you don’t need draw stops. But it’s not deniable that they can help people be more consistant. I suppose you could say that I just need to do more practice, and it’s true, but having draw stops makes more consistant now, and makes archery more fun for me now, which is really important for me. I’m human, maybe you are not. When I get tired I get a little sloppy so my draw length is a little more or a little less. This changes my form and changes the energy that goes into the arrow. If I were a more perfect being than I wouldn’t need the little crutches that I have in my life. You really shouldn’t assume that my bow is badly set up. It isn’t. It could be a little better set up, but I haven’t been shooting much recently and things change. You also shouldn’t assume that a pro shop can do a better job than I can do. There are plenty of pro shops with people who know what they are doing, but I can name two in my area who are just a little bit better than completely clueless. Marty Sasaki
Response:
: When you shoot a compound good form is vital. Trying to put draw stops to : "stop" form variations is a bad idea, and groups will suffer. You are half right here. I agree if I had better form overall, then I wouldn’t desire draw stops. But by that reasoning, Olympic archers shouldn’t need clickers and compound archers shouldn’t need releases or peep sights or kisser buttons. But the top archers use clickers and releases and peep sights. Are they all inadequate like me? 
I’ll also be sure to mention the fact that pulling to stops is bad and that scores and groups will suffer to two local members of the U.S. Archery Team. Can someone who has contact with Terry and Michelle Ragsdale notify them for me? Thanks. Marty Sasaki
Response:
One point I forgot to answer…
: You feel to overdraw the bow so you need longer draw length, i. e., more : cable around the wheel. I carefully set up the draw length to be at the center of the valley. I used a bow scale to measure this and tried very hard to make sure that this was the most comfortable spot. When I start shooting I’m right there. I know this because I put marks on my cables to see where I was drawing. Over time I start drifting. I also notice that my draw slightly lengthens as I aim. This is probably an artifact from shooting Olympic style where I’m pulling through a clicker. If I lengthened the bow’s draw length I would probably be shooting just behind the front wall, which actually might be easier to be consistant with… Marty Sasaki
Response:
>: With round wheels, with their longer valley it’s not need a draw stop. >: It’s difficult to explain in e-mail the proceedings to change draw lenght. >: The best advice I can give you is see someone that could do the job, because >: putting draw stops in your case is only covering a baddly setup bow. >Of course you don’t need draw stops. But it’s not deniable that they >can help people be more consistant. I suppose you could say that I >just need to do more practice, and it’s true, but having draw stops >makes more consistant now, and makes archery more fun for me now, >which is really important for me. >I’m human, maybe you are not. When I get tired I get a little sloppy >so my draw length is a little more or a little less.
THAT is the problem! In a tournamet, after 50 or 60 shots, I get sloopy as well. So, by instinct, I try to draw harder and in that moment I draw TO hard! Thats what I mean with "overdraw". And I thought, it would be a good idea to use a draw stop. — Bye, Sven
Response:
Sell That Bow and buy a single cam bow. Money you need to invest in a correct shooting draw setup for you will be totally waisted and you will want a new bow at the end anyway, so why postpone the end result. Buy a new bow.. — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
I have the wallbangers on my hoyt-superstar-meridian with E-wheels. Gives the bow a perfect wall from which to shoot. Very good if you are using release and back tension release technique. Just put another on my hoyt-defiant-carbonite with the Master Cam. Did not need the "wall" benefit of the wallbangers for this cam but it allows me to tune to the front of the cam’s valley which has picked up some speed and again with back tension release – lets me shoot from same relative point of power curve. I also have a set on my wife’s bow hoyt-superstar-fastflight with E-wheels. I have used them, along with some interesting cable/string combination to move the bow down to about a 28# draw (neat – considering the bow is rated at 50#) Essentially, if you can practice alot – you don’t need these things. For us poor slobs that must work doing something other than shooting. It is a great "crutch". I have both the old wallbanger and new model. newer models look more "polished" in looks and mfg. My only concern is that the newer do not look as sturdy as the older. Of course the newer model should not damage the limbs if a string breaks as the older ones most likely would. Then again if your string breaks – chances are you can throw the limbs away too… my 0.02 + change… stephen.
